A little help please - Page 3 - Harley Davidson Forums: Harley Davidson Motorcycle Forum
Harley-DavidsonForums.com is an independent enthusiast website owned and operated by VerticalScope Inc. Harley-DavidsonForums.com is not sponsored by or in any way affiliated with Harley-Davidson Inc.. The Harley Davidson names and logos are trademarks owned by Harley-Davidson Inc.

Go Back   Harley Davidson Forums: Harley Davidson Motorcycle Forum > Technical > Engine

» Insurance
» Our Partners
»ATV Reviews
»Motorcycle Games
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-24-2012, 09:16 AM   #21 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Munnsville, N.Y.
Posts: 1,407
Quote:
Originally Posted by bikedelic View Post
Thanks Dave, your input is very helpful and appreciated. My wallet has been pretty gaunt with putting my wife back through school.

So if I'm reading and interpreting your reply accurately, you are suggesting not to take the rocker boxes / top end apart, just to replace the tappets and cam bearings and bushing? It sounds like a very good plan at this point in time.

I am still not completely sure on the diagnosis. I have listened using a metal rod and when I place it in various places; I hear more of a whirring sound than any ticking. When I listen with my ear close to the cam cover / tappet blocks, that is where the ticking seems loudest but sometimes it almost sounds more like a rattle. That makes me think primary, and I hear it there, just not as loud. One other thing I have noted is that the cam cover seems to get really hot - hotter than the crankcase. Lastly, it seems I've got more vibration than normal - that the idle is not as smooth but I may just be psyching myself out.

There was a bulletin from the Moco, that stated to "inspect/replace the lifters @ 25,000 on the clock.
I'd be looking in that area, first, at is the easiest to access, and eliminate.
Another area that a noise will surface is from the crank, as certain years H-D set the fitment on the rod/roller/pin waaaaaaaaaay too tight, and after a period of time, they find there own clearence. Not what anyone wants to hear.
Not saying that is the issue, but just alerting you to the possibility.
Scott
__________________
"....3 dueces and a 4 speed..........and a 389"..........
Hillsidecycleco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2012, 06:47 PM   #22 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
bikedelic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Charlotte/Harrisburg NC
Posts: 868
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hillsidecycleco View Post
There was a bulletin from the Moco, that stated to "inspect/replace the lifters @ 25,000 on the clock.
I'd be looking in that area, first, at is the easiest to access, and eliminate.
Another area that a noise will surface is from the crank, as certain years H-D set the fitment on the rod/roller/pin waaaaaaaaaay too tight, and after a period of time, they find there own clearence. Not what anyone wants to hear.
Not saying that is the issue, but just alerting you to the possibility.
Scott
Thanks Scott,

I am in the process of tearing it down, but had to go out of town for ten days, so I will not be abe to get at the tappets until after Nov. 3rd. I will let everybody know how they look as soon as I can.

In the mean time, I'm stuck in up-state NY for some training for the company for the next 10 days.

Regards,
Gordon
bikedelic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2012, 09:28 PM   #23 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Missouri
Posts: 496
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave63 View Post
Call me retarded.....but I actually love my quiet pipes. (Not sewing machine quiet, but off a police bike) At times I'd like to have louder pipes, but not being able to hear something going south would bother me too.

Too boot.....catching some problems early can be the difference of a repair, or a rebuild.

Maybe I'm just getting old.
Well I'm retarded also then. I have no problem with my stock pipes. I'm sure my neighborhood doesn't either when I fire up at 6AM on a Saturday or Sunday morning.

As far as performance goes .. it's already quicker and ultimately faster than I need to go as is.
secoleman57 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2012, 05:16 AM   #24 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
bikedelic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Charlotte/Harrisburg NC
Posts: 868
Garage
Got back from upstate New York yesterday. I finished pulling the rocker box covers and lower rocker boxes off and removed the pushrods and covers. Anybody know what size socket I need for the 12 point fasteners in the tappet blocks?
bikedelic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2012, 05:32 AM   #25 (permalink)
Retired citizen
 
SCHMIDTYS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Pt. Wash.,WI
Posts: 13,051
Quote:
Originally Posted by bikedelic View Post
Got back from upstate New York yesterday. I finished pulling the rocker box covers and lower rocker boxes off and removed the pushrods and covers. Anybody know what size socket I need for the 12 point fasteners in the tappet blocks?
1/4 inch 12 point.
__________________
Disclaimer : Don't believe anything I say unless you are absolutely sure that I know what I'm talking about .
SCHMIDTYS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2012, 09:29 AM   #26 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 3,014
Quote:
Originally Posted by DHH57 View Post
Lifter lifts the push rod, tappet is pushed by the rod and opens the valve. see below from Wickopedia:

A tappet is the noise made by a worn cam follower, however the term is widely used to represent the cam follower itself. In mechanical engineering it is a projection which imparts a linear motion to some other component within an assembly. Properly speaking, a tappet is the only part of a rocker arm that makes contact with an intake or exhaust valve stem above the cylinder head of an internal combustion engine. As the cam rotates, it creates both a sideways and a downward force on the tappet. Without a tappet (and with the cam acting directly on the valve), the sideways force would cause the valve stem to bend. With a tappet, the sideways force is transferred to the cylinder head so only the downward force acts on the valve stem.
Thank for looking it up...but the question was just a joke.. a poor joke but a joke none the less..
webco2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2012, 05:22 PM   #27 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
bikedelic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Charlotte/Harrisburg NC
Posts: 868
Garage
Well, I've torn into in pretty good and have more questions than answers. I have rocker boxes off, pushrods pulled, tappet blocks pulled and the cam chest open.

The rollers on the tappets are good; there is very slight wear on the sides of the exhaust tappets, but it is almost nonexistent - a few very faint scuff marks on the sides. I have no idea how to tell if they will pump up and stay pumped up when hot, but they don't look bad.

When I pulled the pipes, I did not find any evidence of an exhaust leak - seals looked good, but will now have to be replaced.

I just got the cam chest open this late this evening - too tired to examine it much more than a quick look. No signs of unusual wear on the bearing and bushing surfaces or on the cam lobes.

So where the heck is my noise coming from? Do Evo compensators go bad - can that sound like a tick or tap? I saw another thread here where the OP was having a similar noise and it turned out to be the starter clutch after throwing a bunch of money and parts at it.

Since I'm this far into it, I might as well pull the jugs and replace the base gaskets since they are leaking slightly and get a look at the pistons/rings.

Beyond that, I'm stumped. I am grateful for any qualified input.

If I replace the tappets, can I reuse the stock pushrods or should I install adjustable pushrods? I know it would make future service easier.

I'm also curious if there are any distinguishing marks on stock and aftermarket cams so that I might be able to tell what I've got?

I'm really jonesing for a ride.
bikedelic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2012, 07:03 PM   #28 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Dan89flstc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Ct
Posts: 574
I agree with the others that it may be a lifter going out; it could be either a hydraulic problem (not pumping up properly) or a mechanical issue (roller needle bearing going).

That engine originally came with what are known as “A” lifters, there were some problems with this lifter, so the factory changed the design of the lifter to the “B” lifter.

Most problems with the “A” lifters were encountered when an aftermarket cam was used.

It won`t hurt to change the inner cam bearing, but your engine already has the Torrington B-138.

If it were my bike, and I was on a budget, I would change the lifters, pull the cylinders and replace the base gaskets and reassemble the engine (as long as the cylinders and pistons etc. look ok).

I use Hylomar to hold the rocker gaskets in place.

I`m not a fan of adjustable push rods, they are noisy and can come loose. I had one come loose but I was lucky, it only cost me a lifter.
Dan89flstc is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 05:03 AM   #29 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
bikedelic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Charlotte/Harrisburg NC
Posts: 868
Garage
Thanks Dan, I appreciate your input. Your advice is always well founded.
bikedelic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 06:18 AM   #30 (permalink)
Grandstanding Member
 
Dave63's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: PA
Posts: 29,816
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan89flstc View Post
I agree with the others that it may be a lifter going out; it could be either a hydraulic problem (not pumping up properly) or a mechanical issue (roller needle bearing going).

That engine originally came with what are known as “A” lifters, there were some problems with this lifter, so the factory changed the design of the lifter to the “B” lifter.

I`m not a fan of adjustable push rods, they are noisy and can come loose. I had one come loose but I was lucky, it only cost me a lifter.
Agreed. The change from A to B was a larger roller axle.

The part number is 18523-86B. Harley was seeing a high rate of premature axle failures and made the axle a larger diameter. I believe the change over was in 1989 or in that area.


IMHO, adjustable pushrods make no more noise than solid rods unless they're aluminum. Chrome moly pushrods make no noise. Tapered rods or large diameter pushrods can some times scrape the pushrod tube requiring trimming of the inner (upper) tube.

With that being said, I do agree that adjustable pushrods have the potential to make noise, due to most installers not finding the base-circle correctly, or due to other issues, not related to the part, rather to the installer.

I've used adjustable pushrods to solve noise issues that solids were allowing.

Adjustable also can come loose if not properly tightened or if they're cheap. I've learned you get what you pay for with adjustable pushrods. SE or S&S make quality parts.. However they do allow you to set the pushrod farther in the bore than stock rods and that equals less noise especially with higher lift cams.

Another thing to check is the roller wheel play in the tappet. Both side to side and up and down. There should be no grooves in the side of the roller or excessive play in the wheel via the needle bearings. If either are seen than replace.

Worn cam and pinion gears can make a ticking just like a tappet. Excessive lash in those gears makes that very same tappet "clicking" noise due to allowed movement during engine operation. Special pins are needed to check that and the procedure is covered in the manual. It's cam install-101.
__________________
__________________________________________
“When the going gets weird, the weird turn professional....” ~ Hunter S. Thompson~

R.I.P. Rubberdown. 1971-2012
Dave63 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.2

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:23 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.
This site is in no way affiliated with Harley-Davidson
Motorcycle News, Videos and Reviews
Honda Grom Forum Harley Davidson Forum Honda 600RR Kawasaki Forum Yamaha R6 Forum Yamaha FZ-09 Forum
1199 Panigale Forum Roadglide Forum Honda CBR1000 Forum Vulcan Forum Yamaha R1 Forum Yamaha R3 Forum
Ducati Monster Forum Harley Forums Honda CBR250R Forum ZX10R Forum Star Raider Forum Yamaha Viking Forum
Suzuki GSXR Forum V-Rod Forums Honda Shadow Forum Kawasaki Motorcycle Forum Star Warrior Forum KTM Duke 390 Forum
SV650 Forum BMW S1000RR Forum Honda Fury Forum Kawasaki Versys Forum Drag Racing Forum Ducati 899 Panigale Forum
Suzuki V-Strom BMW K1600 Triumph Forum Victory Forums Sportbikes BMW NineT Forum
Volusia Forum BMW F800 Forum Triumph 675 Forum MV Agusta Forum HD Street Forum Suzuki GW250 Forum
Yamaha Motorcycles Victory Gunner Forum Honda Vultus Forum HD LiveWire Forum Ninja H2 Forum Ducati Scrambler Forum