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Old 12-17-2012, 03:27 PM   #31 (permalink)
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I'm laughing as I stir the pot a little here, but I find it funny that someone who once posted, "that's right, I once heard George Christie, at that time he was president of HA Ventura Ca, talking about club membership, he said something like: you have to ask yourself, do you really want to be a member of an organisation that will likely have you end up in jail?" is now defending the HA in this thread.
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Old 12-17-2012, 04:46 PM   #32 (permalink)
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I'm laughing as I stir the pot a little here, but I find it funny that someone who once posted, "that's right, I once heard George Christie, at that time he was president of HA Ventura Ca, talking about club membership, he said something like: you have to ask yourself, do you really want to be a member of an organisation that will likely have you end up in jail?" is now defending the HA in this thread.
I always defend any organization that is persecuted by law enforcement.
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Old 12-17-2012, 04:49 PM   #33 (permalink)
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I always defend any organization that is persecuted by law enforcement.
"persecuted" being the operative word.
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Old 12-17-2012, 05:33 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Police almost always have a way to get what they want done (at least in Kansas City). In this case the cops could have arrested them for speeding (a traffic ticket is technically an arrest with an on-the-spot signature bond; but custody arrest is an option in some places). Every arrest requires a frisk and vehicle search for inventory purposes, and if contraband is found...bam.

The moral of the story is don't break that law; but if you do, don't have stuff on you that you shouldn't have.
In almost every state I have read anything about, cops can't just search a vehicle for no reason. If you think your going to get arrested and your in a cage, get out, leave the keys in the car and lock the doors. It's cheaper to hire a locksmith than a lawyer (or if your smart you have a spare key hidden). If your on a bike, make sure your bags are locked. Po-Po can only search what is in plain sight if they do not have RAS (Reasonable Articulateable Suspsion). If they search a vehicle for "Inventory purposes", without a search warrent for a specific item with RAS, anything they find may get taken, but you shouldn't get charged. You may loose your pot or whatever, but it's still an illegal search.

The other thing to remember is K.Y.B.F.M.S (Keep Your Big Fugg'n Mouth Shut) until your lawyer gets there. They can ask all the questions they want, but they can't force you to speak. The only thing you need to say right from the git go is: "I want to talk to my attorney". When your being arrested, police are not your friend! They are there to build a case against you, not for you. Do NOT talk to them if you have been arrested!!!!!!!

Edit to add: I am NOT a lawyer, talk to one BEFORE you have any legal interation with LEO and find out the particulars for your state.
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Old 12-17-2012, 06:43 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Well from what I read in the article they where traveling 25 mph over the posted speed limit. In Missouri 20 mph over the speed limit "can" land you in jail if the officer wishes to arrest. Anything less is always a "signature bond", above depends on what kind of day the cop is having.

So around here what the officer should have done if he/she really wanted to make it stick is after asking if he was armed, simply arrested him on the speeding, then filed additional charges on the firearms violation after the search.

You HAVE to give them your name if asked.
You SHOULD confirm if you are in the military and show them your papers if asked or if they find out you are and bitch to your command you might face charges.
You are SUPPOSE to tell them if you are armed if asked (how you going to prove without a search)
Other than that you don't have to answer any questions.
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Old 12-17-2012, 06:59 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Here in Ontario, none of this would have been an issue, because evidence obtained in an illegal search is admissible. Cops just do what they want, seize what they want. They may get their wrist slapped, but absolute worst case scenario the cop may get a short suspension (with pay). That's what happens when you live in a country (Canada) that has no constitutional rights guaranteed.

BTW, if ALL motorists were searched for weapons, or it was legal for ALL motorists to be searched for weapons for this speeding infraction, it wouldn't bother me a bit if these HA's were searched. They were speeding and the one HA was carrying illegal weapons. My only issue has to do with targeting them because they were club members.
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Old 12-17-2012, 11:22 PM   #37 (permalink)
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For the most part, I agree with you Chris, and while I don't know about any other state, anything under 20 mph over the speed limit (Here anyway) and the cop would have not been able to arrest nor perform a search (unless consented to).

From the article I assume (we all know what that means) that he had no intention of arresting for the traffic violation yet he wanted a search. In a way I'm surprised they threw it out because the guy at the point he told him he was going to do a pat down admitted to having firearms.

There is the reason to search and arrest on the gun charge.

I'm glad it turned out the way it did however I can't help thinking he's lucky. The first thing I'd have asked when told someone was going to do a pat down on me would be "am I under arrest?".

If the answer was "no" then the next would be "May I go now?". And I'd have kept up that circular form of argument until I was allowed to go or arrested.

The guy was speeding which is why he was stopped. Had he been stopped simply because of his colors then that would have been "Targeting".

To me, the only real point is the majority of judges agreed that simply wearing colors doesn't meet "Reasonable Suspicion".

From the cop's POV, you have two MC members inside known rival MC territory and both are flying, they've already given you reason to pull them over by speeding.

Unless I had a low opinion of their intelligence or was incredibly stupid myself, I'd have assumed they were armed with "something". I too would have asked if they were armed (which I think is pretty much a standard question anyway) and if I didn't like the answer they gave, based on where I live, they could have been arrested for the moving violation, then searched.

I'm happy with the finding however, I still think they had a good defense attorney and quite a bit of luck.
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:28 AM   #38 (permalink)
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I always defend any organization that is persecuted by law enforcement.
Like these guys?

New charges filed against 6 gang members The Breed motorcycle club members now face a charge of conspiracy to distribute crystal meth. - Philly.com

I knew "Slam" and "Tow Truck" by sight from bars in and around Bristol, and what the article doesn't tell you is that the Club president, who was arrested on weapons charges, turned the rest of them in.

No offense, but if you stepped up to "defend" these guys in real life, they would throw you through a window and laugh about it while their old ladies went through your pockets. Would you really want to see these guys ranging around unchallenged by law enforcement?

I got into it with a Prospect or two, but I can hold my own (back when I did drink) and I can tell you that they don't think about rules, or fairness, or anything else when it comes to dealing with Joe Public. Sorry if the thought of cops hassling 1%ers bothers some people, but again with all respect, I frankly just don't care.
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Last edited by City Chicken; 12-19-2012 at 08:34 AM. Reason: Added more stufff
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:50 AM   #39 (permalink)
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My post is not meant to be a personal attack of anyone on this Board; I am happy to be an active part of this discussion and in no way wish to offend anyone.

Having said that, my family and I live in regions where there is alot of criminal activity perpetrated by men wearing patches. VA, MD, DE and NJ - if you know these areas then you likely know the names of these Clubs. We also have Bloods who like to advertise their affiliation by wearing the color red from head-to-toe.

These groups do more than just affiliate and socialize with each other; they are selling hard drugs to kids at schools where my nieces and nephews attend. Yeah, I get the whole argument about guilt by association, but these groups profess to operate "outside the law" which makes it hard for me to want to see them afforded any kind of legal protection.
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Old 12-19-2012, 02:42 PM   #40 (permalink)
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I actually said persecuted, not rightfully prosecuted. I certainly don't condone anyone selling or making meth or breaking the law at all.


Of the 2 major clubs in this area (Red Devils and HA) the only arrests made by police in 5 years has been for BS type stuff. The president of the HA's was picked up with another guy for threatening a bar owner. The Red Devils have not had a member arrested for any felony crime in over 5 years. The problem is, if the clubs aren't committing crimes, the cops in charge of persecuting the bikers have to have something to do, so they harass any bikers simply because of your transportation choice. If they are allowed to stop, search, etc club members because of their perceived activities, pretty soon cops will be able to apply that logic to anyone on a bike. They can always claim you are an associate. If you attend a bike show & shine or charity poker run sponsored by a club, that all it takes. Now the cops have your picture and you are a "known associate". It's all downhill from there.

Not exactly related to the topic at hand, but an interesting story.
A little over 5 years ago, the BEU raided the Hamilton HA's clubhouse. There were about 8 members present at the time. The total contraband seized were about an oz of weed, 2 grams of coke, a shot gun (that the owner had a firearms acquisition permit for) and the money in their wallets (about a grand total). Charges were laid for the pot and coke, and for the gun not being properly stored. A few days later, at the press conference, the police had a display with bricks of pot, bricks of coke, all sorts of handguns, and scads of money. Now, it was never once stated that any of this stuff was actually seized in this raid, and quite conveniently, no member of the media asked. The public, however took the bait, demanded that the club house be seized, etc. This is the perception I was talking about. As far as the public was then concerned, the HA's were selling tons of dope, had a full arsenal, which was not the case based on the actual evidence. Be careful what you believe.
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