Finally Getting Ready to Upgrade my 80" Evo - Page 2 - Harley Davidson Forums: Harley Davidson Motorcycle Forum
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post #11 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-06-2019, 07:22 AM
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Sounds cool. I would save your money on the 6 speed. It doesn't give you anything you are looking for. Mine lugged in 6th even at 90mph. Maybe it was gearing, but I just don't think you'll need it. I say this after several EVO's and 1 with a 6 speed.

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post #12 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-06-2019, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by gtrman66 View Post
Sounds cool. I would save your money on the 6 speed. It doesn't give you anything you are looking for. Mine lugged in 6th even at 90mph. Maybe it was gearing, but I just don't think you'll need it. I say this after several EVO's and 1 with a 6 speed.
I've got an '07 ultra with the 110 inch tc and a 6 sp. I agree that 6th just isn't used that often. Maybe if I was in the west with those long flat open roads I would use it more.
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post #13 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-06-2019, 11:04 AM
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Maybe if I was in the west with those long flat open roads I would use it more.
Works pretty good on the Gulf Coast.

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post #14 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-06-2019, 12:40 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by gtrman66 View Post
Sounds cool. I would save your money on the 6 speed. It doesn't give you anything you are looking for. Mine lugged in 6th even at 90mph. Maybe it was gearing, but I just don't think you'll need it. I say this after several EVO's and 1 with a 6 speed.
The 6 speed may not be necessary, and I know I'd never use it around town and would only use it on the highway for a lower cruising RPM, which I wanted for the built up motor for longevity.

I was still on the fence about it. I talked to the guys at Baker and they recommended the DD6. I started crunching numbers on it to figure out, other than how the gears are set up in the case, what the difference would be.

With the DD6 on a softail, you would swap the compensator from the stock 25 tooth to one that's 28 tooth, which makes the DD6 effectively the same gear ratio as the OD6 (DD6's 6th gear is direct 1.0, but the 28 tooth comp makes it effectively .86). In all the numbers I crunched (using this calculator), the effective gear ratio of all gears (due to the change in primary ratio) of the DD6 is the same as the gear ratio in the OD6 (with stock primary ratio), but the overall ratio (engine to rear wheel) is different (one is 2.9 and the other is 3.-something) and the DD6 causes a lower RPM at any given speed than the OD6.

But anyway, 99% of my riding is not touring, though getting from town to town here can take 30+ minutes with 20 minutes of that being on the highway at 70 mph (which is exactly when I start looking for another gear).

I knew full well that I wouldn't use the 6th gear much. I was mainly on the fence about it not because of price, but whether it would hinder performance or change the feel. And I don't want to go through the labor of swapping the guts. The SE 6-speed transmission for mine is $2,100 and the DD6 builders kit guts are $2,495.00. I couldn't find online the gear ratios for that specific SE 6 speed, though one place I saw pegged the 6th gear at .89 (which is a less drastic overdrive than the .86 of the Baker, but apparently uses the same 2.95 or whatever first gear as the Baker as best I can tell). Even though Baker recommended the DD6, I wasn't sure if they understood what I was asking about (I don't want to sacrifice acceleration for better mpg and lower cruising RPMs).

So, I looked at just swapping the transmission out as a whole and it's around $3600 for the Baker DD6 complete (fully assembled case) with everything I need (speed sensor recalibration module, the new compensator and different pitch chain, etc). I'd personally pay that much to just swap the whole transmission instead of taking one apart and putting new guts. I both am and am not really worried about money. There's some instances where I try to save and others I am not worried about it. As long as I have enough for an emergency (which I now do), I am fine.

What 6 speed did you have in it, do you recall? And what was the model and year and build on that Evo? I was reading about the Evo softails and I think in 1992 or 1994, they changed the overall ratio by changing the primary ratios. I think before the primary had a more aggressive ratio, like 24/37 or something? Maybe the ratio from transmission to rear wheel was different too? I don't remember at the moment, but I do know mine stock is 25/36 in the primary.

Just found the thing I was reading about it (https://www.hotbikeweb.com/motorcycl...-basics#page-5):
Quote:
Starting in 1995, all Evolution Softail Big Twins were shipped from the factory with a 2.92:1 final drive ratio (a 1.44 primary ratio multiplied by a 2.03 secondary ratio equals 2.92) while all other Evo Big Twins shipped with a 3.15:1 final drive ratio (a 1.44 primary ratio multiplied by a 2.19 secondary ratio equals a 3.15). Most 1993 and earlier Evo Big Twins came with a 3.37:1 final drive ratio. The pattern we see here is that 1995 and later Softails have a higher (lower numerically) final drive ratio (2.92:1) than the other models. This means the engine's crankshaft turns 2.92 revolutions for every revolution of the rear wheel. All things being equal, this gives the Softail less acceleration than the other models but requires less rpm at highway speeds for smoother running.

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post #15 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-06-2019, 12:55 PM
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I had a revtech (I know, I know, it was in the bike when I bought it and had to put in a stock 5 speed a few months later when it tanked) 6 speed in a '97 FLHT
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post #16 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-06-2019, 01:04 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by gtrman66 View Post
I had a revtech (I know, I know, it was in the bike when I bought it and had to put in a stock 5 speed a few months later when it tanked) 6 speed in a '97 FLHT
See, trying to research this suff too, every time I see someone talk about having a 6-speed, it's ALWAYS a heavier FL bike, and usually a touring or close to touring (is a RK considered touring or just part of the standard softail line?) like the FLH. The Baker guy that recommended the DD6 for me has an FLH.

I thought about doing a search for people with Dyna's using 6-speeds, since they're more likely to have lighter ones like mine (like the Wide Glides).

So that's another thing that's mmade figuring this stuff out kind of difficult.

A quick search and it looks like the close first ratio and OD ratio is the same on the RevTech as the SE 6-speed transmission (2.94 and .89), but who knows if that's been updated from a different ratio when it was put on the bike you had.
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post #17 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-06-2019, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by gtrman66 View Post
I had a revtech (I know, I know, it was in the bike when I bought it and had to put in a stock 5 speed a few months later when it tanked) 6 speed in a '97 FLHT
What tanked on the 6 speed?

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post #18 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-06-2019, 04:00 PM Thread Starter
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I can't seem to find the gear ratios anywhere for a stock 5-speed transmission on late model Evos and even with Harley, there's some confusion.

I looked up the owners manual (1997 Harley Owners Manual) on the HD-sip site and it says the overall ratio for first gear is 9.388 on a Softail and 10.11 on a Dyna, but my factory service manual for my bike (1997/1998 Harley Softail Factory Service Manual) says the overall is 10.11.

So I can't even figure out what the actual gearing is. Roughly a 3.2-3.21 is about 9.388, and a 3.45-3.46 is about 10.11 overall ratio for the first gear, considering all my other stock ratios that I know are right (25/36 primary, 32/65 final drive).

So, I just used the 3.24 first gear through 1.0 for 5th, which is as best I can tell is the stock Harley 5 speed for late model Evos.

The DD6 with 28 tooth compensator has the same effective transmission ratio as the OD6 with 25 tooth compensator (though I am not sure with the optional first gear on the DD6 order page if that's a 2.94 gear or an effective 2.94 assuming 28 tooth comp sprocket; it doesn't list a 3.77 first gear in the options, which would be an effective 3.24 which I think is maybe the standard first if you don't choose a different first gear in the options, so I am assuming the option 2.94 is actual and not effective).

Overall ratios (engine to rear wheel; based on direct drive gear):
• Stock............................................. 2.925
• Baker OD6..................................... 2.925
• Baker DD6 w/ 28 tooth comp...... 2.611

Regarding overall ratios:
• Bigger number = smaller ratio, better acceleration, higher running RPM at a given speed, lower efficiency/MPG
• Smaller number = bigger ratio, less acceleration, lower running RPM at a given speed, greater efficiency/MPG

The pictures below are the calculated ratios for stock 5 speed, then OD6, then DD6 with 28 tooth comp (both Bakers using the 2.94 first gear recommended for dynas and softails; the 3.24 is recommended for touring softails and the 2.82 is an optional race gear available only on the OD6).
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Kyle
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post #19 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-06-2019, 07:39 PM Thread Starter
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Well, one more thing of why I want to change the transmission...

Without these coming upgrades, the first gear ratio isn't that great. It kind of runs out too fast. Like, I could take off in second gear with almost no lug, though I couldn't take off very fast obviously, but if the ratio was a little closer to second gear, that would have been great even before these upgrades. Almost like the stock first gear is great when my wife was on the back, but riding solo, was a little annoying.

But again, all this gearing crap is confusing and there's no real "explain it like I'm stupid" anywhere. Like nobody can just say "if you got a light bike with a stage 3 Evo and you don't want to alter every ratio from primary to tranny to final drive, go with this option".

It basically boils down to: stick with the stock 5 speed, go with the OD6 and no other drive ratio mods, or go with the DD6 and only change the comp sprocket and no other ratios. But so many that swapped had a 24/37 primary rather than 25/36, so I can't even tell. Then others say 6th is a lug on this or that and keep talking about this and that CI when what really matters is the torque and HP for the weight, regardless of the size of the motor (size changes the torque and HP). Then others say a modded Evo pulls the 6th fine at 75 mph while others say it doesn't unless you do 90 mph.

Like, I just want the stock final drive 32/65, want the same basic feel that I have with the stock 5 speed, and a 6th just for highway cruising at 75+ mph. I'm already going to be getting plenty of a boost from the engine mods, I'm not out to street race.

There's so much contradictory info on the gearing between primary and transmission and then going into final drive ratios.

I might just stay with my stock 5 speed.
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Last edited by sardonicus87; 08-06-2019 at 10:14 PM.
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post #20 of 54 (permalink) Old 08-06-2019, 10:39 PM
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I might just stay with my stock 5 speed.
That's what I would do if you still consider the DD6. It's still 1:1 final drive, just like the 5 spd.

It's just math, Kyle. Using a calculator helps.

And math doesn't lie.

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