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A few thoughts:

Are these Chinese-assembled HD's based on HD specs and whatnot, or did HD just make an agreement to basically take another bike (the Benelli 353S for example) change some of the plasticy bits and throw an HD sticker on it?
Probably a bit of both. The engine was originally closer to 300 and used on QJ and Benelli, but it's possible Harley pushed for it to be a bit larger. The styling, according to design patent filings, is credited to six designers, all from HD.
 

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2022 HD Low Rider ST EL Diablo
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Probably a bit of both. The engine was originally closer to 300 and used on QJ and Benelli, but it's possible Harley pushed for it to be a bit larger. The styling, according to design patent filings, is credited to six designers, all from HD.
As long as it ends up being a quality scoot, I say good deal. HD has to do something.
 
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Discussion Starter · #23 ·

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2022 El Diablo, 1997 FXSTC
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Discussion Starter · #32 ·
Not an anniversary model, but LRST done by the same people that did the anniversary paint (Gunslinger)

 

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Talked to a dealer Saturday, they will be only getting nine anniversary bikes. Which according to them is quite a few compared to many other dealers.
 
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Overall, thoroughly unimpressed. 120th anniversary and all we get is different paint jobs and a badge (albeit a really nice badge). A kick in the teeth somewhat to those of us who bought an EL Diablo when they were released late last year.

The Road Glide 3 is cool, but why not offer a Tri Glide Limited with the sharknose?
 

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Overall, thoroughly unimpressed. 120th anniversary and all we get is different paint jobs and a badge (albeit a really nice badge). A kick in the teeth somewhat to those of us who bought an EL Diablo when they were released late last year.

The Road Glide 3 is cool, but why not offer a Tri Glide Limited with the sharknose?
I don't see it as much a kick in the teeth. The Heirloom Red paint job is different than the El Diablo red scheme, and you still won't see any other Low Rider ST this year in anything other than black or now white sand pearl or whatever it is called (Low Rider ST doesn't get the 120 anniversary paint options), but still isn't a color, just more of black, white or grey. Otherwise, is every red paint job going to be a kick in the teeth?

Personally, my getting the El Diablo has nothing to do with it being in the "Icons Collection" or being "limited edition" or "unique". I was in love with the Low Rider ST from day one of it's release, I just hated you only had the option of black or that ugly grey color. Had the release been a different color than red, I might not have gone in on it. The color spoke to me as much as the overall idea of a Low Rider ST and that's why I pulled the trigger. It wouldn't bother me at all if they offered a Low Rider ST in some kind of red scheme.

Every anniversary or special edition is almost always just paint jobs. Was the same in 2003 anniversary editions, just paint and badging changes. And I don't expect them to break the mold or release some bold new model for the anniversary, I expect anniversary to celebrate what makes them what they are. So of course the classic/iconic models like the Heritage, SG, RG, RK etc get the optional anniversary package.

That said, the year is just beginning, they have other plans and announcements to come throughout the year.

Honestly, there's only two things I am disappointed with from the MoCo, and not related to the anniversary stuff but just in general and that's:
• There's still no Bronx street fighter...
and
• Their "premium" nature—that's supposed to be part of the justification of higher cost of an HD over other brands—is slipping. Yeah, the paint is still amazing, but nearly everything still has incandescent turn signals as stock, the seats now often look as cheap as they are (which, IMO HD never really had good seats but at least they used to look like they were good), ABS isn't standard across the board, etc. A base model Triumph Rocket 3 is ≈$23,000 and has ABS standard, whereas most HD base models don't have ABS standard at the same or higher price point for comparable bikes to a Rocket 3 (which also has fancy rider modes and TFT display standard if you care about that crap, which HD also doesn't have).

I keep seeing people say they're disappointed, but don't see a whole lot of what people want from the MoCo, or how exactly any other brand is doing anything that's different. And every time HD does do something to.shake it up, everyone gets mad at them (look at the reception of the FXDR). Plus, how often do they even need to really change that much, every quarter? Every year? I mean we got a bunch of new in recent years, the new Softail frame was what, 2018? Low Rider ST has only existed like 2 years, same with the new Sportster S all that stuff to be excited about hasn't been that long ago. Are they supposed to be like smart phones now where they have to do constant "NEW NEW NEW" every single year with just change for the sake of change?

I mean what do people really expect or want? "Do something different, I dunno what, but just different! Wait no, not like that, give me more of the same but different!"

Also, where have you been? The CVO models.have coasted $40-50K msrp for like a decade now.
 

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I don't see it as much a kick in the teeth. The Heirloom Red paint job is different than the El Diablo red scheme, and you still won't see any other Low Rider ST this year in anything other than black or now white sand pearl or whatever it is called (Low Rider ST doesn't get the 120 anniversary paint options), but still isn't a color, just more of black, white or grey. Otherwise, is every red paint job going to be a kick in the teeth?

Personally, my getting the El Diablo has nothing to do with it being in the "Icons Collection" or being "limited edition" or "unique". I was in love with the Low Rider ST from day one of it's release, I just hated you only had the option of black or that ugly grey color. Had the release been a different color than red, I might not have gone in on it. The color spoke to me as much as the overall idea of a Low Rider ST and that's why I pulled the trigger. It wouldn't bother me at all if they offered a Low Rider ST in some kind of red scheme.

Every anniversary or special edition is almost always just paint jobs. Was the same in 2003 anniversary editions, just paint and badging changes. And I don't expect them to break the mold or release some bold new model for the anniversary, I expect anniversary to celebrate what makes them what they are. So of course the classic/iconic models like the Heritage, SG, RG, RK etc get the optional anniversary package.
Sorry for the delay, been absolutely buried at work, and since I'm in IT, I tend to avoid computers when I'm not on the clock. ;)

I guess it was just more me being disappointed that the big 120th reveal was nothing more than paint jobs. And yes, while different, they are still similar.

I don't care that my EL Diablo is an Icon Collection either. I did like the idea that there were only 1,499 others like mine in the world though - I wasn't going to be like every other Vivid Black HD out there. Don't get me wrong, I love black, it's just a PITA to keep clean, and I march to the beat of my own (deranged) drummer.

sardonicus87 said:
That said, the year is just beginning, they have other plans and announcements to come throughout the year.

Honestly, there's only two things I am disappointed with from the MoCo, and not related to the anniversary stuff but just in general and that's:
• There's still no Bronx street fighter...
and
• Their "premium" nature—that's supposed to be part of the justification of higher cost of an HD over other brands—is slipping. Yeah, the paint is still amazing, but nearly everything still has incandescent turn signals as stock, the seats now often look as cheap as they are (which, IMO HD never really had good seats but at least they used to look like they were good), ABS isn't standard across the board, etc. A base model Triumph Rocket 3 is ≈$23,000 and has ABS standard, whereas most HD base models don't have ABS standard at the same or higher price point for comparable bikes to a Rocket 3 (which also has fancy rider modes and TFT display standard if you care about that crap, which HD also doesn't have).
I'm going on record right now to say that we won't see anything new from the MoCo this year, unless it's those small-displacement bikes. There will be no Bronx (at least this year) and there likely will never be a Pan America 975. I bet they can't get the weight down enough on the PA 975 to make a difference, and the only reason people buy small or middleweight ADV bikes is the weight (ok, and cost, but this is HD we're talking about).

sardonicus87 said:
I keep seeing people say they're disappointed, but don't see a whole lot of what people want from the MoCo, or how exactly any other brand is doing anything that's different. And every time HD does do something to.shake it up, everyone gets mad at them (look at the reception of the FXDR). Plus, how often do they even need to really change that much, every quarter? Every year? I mean we got a bunch of new in recent years, the new Softail frame was what, 2018? Low Rider ST has only existed like 2 years, same with the new Sportster S all that stuff to be excited about hasn't been that long ago. Are they supposed to be like smart phones now where they have to do constant "NEW NEW NEW" every single year with just change for the sake of change?

I mean what do people really expect or want? "Do something different, I dunno what, but just different! Wait no, not like that, give me more of the same but different!"
Because HD has catered to a core demographic that is aging out of riding altogether, or has (or will be) buying their last bike. At my dealership, you know what the hardest bike to keep on the showroom floor is? Tri Glide Ultra. If it isn't something that was already ordered, those things are gone in a matter of days. Nothing wrong with it, I have medical issues tied to my service in the Army and Persian Gulf that have me looking at the Road Glide 3 or a leftover 2022 Tri Glide Ultra in the GI Enthusiast paintjob.

That said, they're getting their lunches handed to them by Indian and Honda in the performance department. The Indian Challenger and Honda Gold Wing both make quite a bit more power than our EL Diablos do, and we have 117s in 'em! Sure our lighter weight would be an advantage, but you pull up on a Street/Road Glide ST....

I've said it before, I'll say it again - HD can't have it both ways. Either they go back to their blue collar roots, or continue on this track to become an uber-premium brand (which is what it looks like Zeitz is doing, for the time being at least). Most 20-somethings (and a bunch of 30 and 40-somethings) can't afford to drop $20K-$30K plus on a new bike. So they're either buying one of the oceans of used Harleys (most with little mileage) out there which puts little back in the MoCo's pockets, unless they buy genuine HD accessories and parts. And as we all know, the aftermarket tends to make them better and less expensive. Why am I going to give HD $250 for a sissy bar that's basically only good as a pillion pad holder, when for about the same price, I can get a full size one from any one of the small businesses out there on social media who make quality stuff? Shout out to Steven Edward Richie, he makes some good ones from basic to wild for reasonable prices.

If someone forced me to look into my crystal ball and make a prediction, I'd say this is what I think is more likely than not to go down:

  • HD continues to struggle as sales dip
  • HD releases the small-displacement bikes either directly to the dealers for sale, or as training bikes for the HD MSF Course, and then a little later on as for sale at dealerships
  • As the Boomers and Gen-X age out of riding or pass on, HD caters to the younger generations who don't care about Made in the USA, only cheaper prices, so they start having all HD bikes made in other countries to lower the prices and still keep profit margins high

sardonicus87 said:
Also, where have you been? The CVO models.have coasted $40-50K msrp for like a decade now.
Last year, I could have walked into my local dealership and bought a CVO Road Glide Limited for $44K (or whatever MSRP was, $44-$45K). I know a lot of dealers do "market adjustments" to up their profits, but not mine. So to say that I have to pay $52K for a bike that literally 2 weeks ago would cost me $44K is just crazy. I like the Dante's Red Fade paint job last year better anyway. :LOL:

All this comes from a place of passion for HD, their bikes, and their heritage. But the winds are changing - have been for quite some time now. Heck, offer up Rev-Max powered touring models that have to be factory ordered to test the waters. Make the engine a stressed member of the frame, and give a better monoshock rather than the stuff they put on the touring bikes now. Give RDRS as standard with the option to turn off the traction control/ABS at any time. Give us choices, see what happens.

Everything's going to be changing soon anyway. Those who have and want to stay with IC engines (myself included) will. Those who want to have an electric motorcycle once they get the battery range and charging times down (myself included) will.

If HD continues down this path, they really will become a lifestyle company that just happens to offer a few bikes. I mean, c'mon, how much of that motorwear is made outside the US? 100%. How much of the accessories and parts in the catalog are made outside the US? I'd wager at least 50%-60%, if not more.

We cling to HD for its heritage and Made in the USA claim, but overall, we've been sold a rotten bill of goods. Point blank - if it weren't for Reagan's tariffs in the '80s, HD wouldn't likely be here right now.
 

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Discussion Starter · #40 ·
That said, they're getting their lunches handed to them by Indian and Honda in the performance department. The Indian Challenger and Honda Gold Wing both make quite a bit more power than our EL Diablos do, and we have 117s in 'em! Sure our lighter weight would be an advantage, but you pull up on a Street/Road Glide ST....
TLDR....

But 107 HP is 92.5 / 111.4 TQ, 114 HP is 100.5 / 124 TQ, 117 HP is 103 HP / 125 TQ. Goldwing HP is 90 HP / 102.5 TQ

Sorry, but all 3 M8 motors are gonna stomp a mud hole in a Goldwing.

Had some dipshit on a Goldwing start bragging about how much faster Goldwings were compared to Harleys at a Patriot Guard mission once when I had my NightTrain. Told him he couldn't outrun mine and I'd race for titles if he thought any different. He shut his pie hole.

Why is it it's always the Jap bike riders that can't help but run their mouths?
 
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