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weird member
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Discussion Starter #1
First, I gotta talk to this indy guy I trust and find out what's wrong with my bike as it is, and then I gotta ask him if I just bring everything to him, if he will assemble it all for me and retune it. I already have several new Dynojet jets for CV carb and the SE air cleaner (updated 1993-1999 version) and V&H 2-1 Pro Pipe.

So, I plan to go with Hillside for their Evo Stage II headwork + compression release ports drilled, and jugs and stuff (pistons, I think last year talked about also them setting piston rings and matching to the jugs or something). I gotta call them about which cam to go with. I already know I'm going 10:1 piston heads, but unsure between Woods 6H, Woods 8 or Woods 9 cam (I have read a few times that the 6H requires shaving the case a little for fitment, dunno if that's true). Probably a Dyna 2000i ignition system (ignition + coil). But that's only after my indy finds out what's currently wrong with it and if he will reassemble it for me once I get in the upgrades.

After those decisions made, I gotta call Baker and see what they think for a 6 speed transmission (direct vs over drive, ratio for first gear).

The whole thing for me is acceleration, and that's the quick and dirty of it. Yeah, I know I need to up the starter, already got a Baker high-torque IPB and upgraded clutch (kevlar extra plate + 25% stronger heavy duty spring in stock clutch basket). Plus, it's my everything bike (99% daily backroad and around town riding, only light touring).

And yeah, I know I could throw the amount of money I will be spending on it for this toward an used, up-graded TC, but I don't want a TC. Nothing against TC's, but they don't get me rock hard like Evos, and this bike is one I will never get rid of, I will be buried with it.

Anyway, there's a few things I still need to figure out. First... and sorry, my knowledge in regards to engine/engine work is a little on the low side, I only know enough to get into trouble, but:
• What pushrods for such a setup, are the Andrews Chromoly still the way to go?
• Whats the best set of lifters for this?
• Upgrading the rockers... with what?
• Machining required to fit any of those cams and what's the difference between them as far as feel and real power when at 10:1 compression (W6H vs W8 vs W9)?
• Is there anything else I am forgetting?

It's gonna be a screamer, when I want it to be (in a safe environment, obviously).
 

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First, I gotta talk to this indy guy I trust and find out what's wrong with my bike as it is, and then I gotta ask him if I just bring everything to him, if he will assemble it all for me and retune it. I already have several new Dynojet jets for CV carb and the SE air cleaner (updated 1993-1999 version) and V&H 2-1 Pro Pipe.

So, I plan to go with Hillside for their Evo Stage II headwork + compression release ports drilled, and jugs and stuff (pistons, I think last year talked about also them setting piston rings and matching to the jugs or something). I gotta call them about which cam to go with. I already know I'm going 10:1 piston heads, but unsure between Woods 6H, Woods 8 or Woods 9 cam (I have read a few times that the 6H requires shaving the case a little for fitment, dunno if that's true). Probably a Dyna 2000i ignition system (ignition + coil). But that's only after my indy finds out what's currently wrong with it and if he will reassemble it for me once I get in the upgrades.

After those decisions made, I gotta call Baker and see what they think for a 6 speed transmission (direct vs over drive, ratio for first gear).

The whole thing for me is acceleration, and that's the quick and dirty of it. Yeah, I know I need to up the starter, already got a Baker high-torque IPB and upgraded clutch (kevlar extra plate + 25% stronger heavy duty spring in stock clutch basket). Plus, it's my everything bike (99% daily backroad and around town riding, only light touring).

And yeah, I know I could throw the amount of money I will be spending on it for this toward an used, up-graded TC, but I don't want a TC. Nothing against TC's, but they don't get me rock hard like Evos, and this bike is one I will never get rid of, I will be buried with it.

Anyway, there's a few things I still need to figure out. First... and sorry, my knowledge in regards to engine/engine work is a little on the low side, I only know enough to get into trouble, but:
• What pushrods for such a setup, are the Andrews Chromoly still the way to go?
• Whats the best set of lifters for this?
• Upgrading the rockers... with what?
• Machining required to fit any of those cams and what's the difference between them as far as feel and real power when at 10:1 compression (W6H vs W8 vs W9)?
• Is there anything else I am forgetting?

It's gonna be a screamer, when I want it to be (in a safe environment, obviously).
Can't offer any technical advice (but you knew that already), but sounds like she's coming along and going to be one helluva scoot! :smile
 

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Kyle,

If you are going with Hillside, I would suggest asking them the questions you have. They have a lot of experience with different combos and would give a lot better information to you than the forum members. Just tell them what you want to achieve and they (or any long time builder) will suggest the proper combo.
 

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weird member
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Discussion Starter #4
Kyle,

If you are going with Hillside, I would suggest asking them the questions you have. They have a lot of experience with different combos and would give a lot better information to you than the forum members. Just tell them what you want to achieve and they (or any long time builder) will suggest the proper combo.
I planned to ask them as well those questions when I call them, and I do trust them, I talked to them last year when I was planning all this, and I knew that they know their stuff before calling last year.

Just thought I would put out some additional feelers, especially to help get the questions more pointed so I don't tie up their phone too long, and if there's anything else I should be asking about.
 

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IMHO I would go with someone other than hillside
I'm not arguing with you, I just want to know why you feel this way. Scott worked on my 02 glide and I loved it. I don't want this to be a public display so please feel free to PM me. thanks
 

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Proud Infidel
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I'm not arguing with you, I just want to know why you feel this way. Scott worked on my 02 glide and I loved it. I don't want this to be a public display so please feel free to PM me. thanks
I think there are a lot of people who want to know.

Sent from here to there.
 

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As stated that was my opinion nothing more nothing less I’m sure they will do what you want and your bike will run fine.
 

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Darkhorse for lower end (stroke it to an 89) and their sister company Hoban brothers for the top end. Heads (HD SE if you can find them or S&S), S&S tappets, S&S 561 cam and HVHP oil pump. Twintec ignition. Live in higher altitude stick with a 42 Harley CV carb - live in lower altitude go with SE 44 CV carb. Always use Cometic gaskets. Better tolerances which equates to a smidge better performance. Lastly put a Thunderheader exhaust on old girl. My $0.02. You won't be disappointed.
 

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First, I gotta talk to this indy guy I trust and find out what's wrong with my bike as it is, and then I gotta ask him if I just bring everything to him, if he will assemble it all for me and retune it. I already have several new Dynojet jets for CV carb and the SE air cleaner (updated 1993-1999 version) and V&H 2-1 Pro Pipe.

So, I plan to go with Hillside for their Evo Stage II headwork + compression release ports drilled, and jugs and stuff (pistons, I think last year talked about also them setting piston rings and matching to the jugs or something). I gotta call them about which cam to go with. I already know I'm going 10:1 piston heads, but unsure between Woods 6H, Woods 8 or Woods 9 cam (I have read a few times that the 6H requires shaving the case a little for fitment, dunno if that's true). Probably a Dyna 2000i ignition system (ignition + coil). But that's only after my indy finds out what's currently wrong with it and if he will reassemble it for me once I get in the upgrades.

After those decisions made, I gotta call Baker and see what they think for a 6 speed transmission (direct vs over drive, ratio for first gear).

The whole thing for me is acceleration, and that's the quick and dirty of it. Yeah, I know I need to up the starter, already got a Baker high-torque IPB and upgraded clutch (kevlar extra plate + 25% stronger heavy duty spring in stock clutch basket). Plus, it's my everything bike (99% daily backroad and around town riding, only light touring).

And yeah, I know I could throw the amount of money I will be spending on it for this toward an used, up-graded TC, but I don't want a TC. Nothing against TC's, but they don't get me rock hard like Evos, and this bike is one I will never get rid of, I will be buried with it.

Anyway, there's a few things I still need to figure out. First... and sorry, my knowledge in regards to engine/engine work is a little on the low side, I only know enough to get into trouble, but:
• What pushrods for such a setup, are the Andrews Chromoly still the way to go?
• Whats the best set of lifters for this?
• Upgrading the rockers... with what?
• Machining required to fit any of those cams and what's the difference between them as far as feel and real power when at 10:1 compression (W6H vs W8 vs W9)?
• Is there anything else I am forgetting?

It's gonna be a screamer, when I want it to be (in a safe environment, obviously).
You've got the bases covered quite well!
The 6H is a broad torque cam, and was one of Woods original grinds when we watched him come to the V-Twin market, in the mid-1990's.
10.0 cr is a very friendly compression for that intake closing....it will take more, but we hedge to the safe side here, always, letting the total combination bring out the power, rather than force-feeding compression.
Combined with the precision S&S lifters, forged Wiseco pistons, our Stage II Evo Heads with beehive springs, and the Dyna 2000i, is a combo(the 6 cam is used often also)that has long proven to be a long mileage home run for almost 25 years of building this configuration.
2 others currently being built here at this time, and one had a stator/regulator meltdown prior to coming in.
If I said we have built over 100 of these, using either a 6 or 6H, I would not be lying.
I'll call you later this morning. :)
 

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Sounds cool. I would save your money on the 6 speed. It doesn't give you anything you are looking for. Mine lugged in 6th even at 90mph. Maybe it was gearing, but I just don't think you'll need it. I say this after several EVO's and 1 with a 6 speed.
 

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Sounds cool. I would save your money on the 6 speed. It doesn't give you anything you are looking for. Mine lugged in 6th even at 90mph. Maybe it was gearing, but I just don't think you'll need it. I say this after several EVO's and 1 with a 6 speed.
I've got an '07 ultra with the 110 inch tc and a 6 sp. I agree that 6th just isn't used that often. Maybe if I was in the west with those long flat open roads I would use it more. :dunno
 

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weird member
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Discussion Starter #14
Sounds cool. I would save your money on the 6 speed. It doesn't give you anything you are looking for. Mine lugged in 6th even at 90mph. Maybe it was gearing, but I just don't think you'll need it. I say this after several EVO's and 1 with a 6 speed.
The 6 speed may not be necessary, and I know I'd never use it around town and would only use it on the highway for a lower cruising RPM, which I wanted for the built up motor for longevity.

I was still on the fence about it. I talked to the guys at Baker and they recommended the DD6. I started crunching numbers on it to figure out, other than how the gears are set up in the case, what the difference would be.

With the DD6 on a softail, you would swap the compensator from the stock 25 tooth to one that's 28 tooth, which makes the DD6 effectively the same gear ratio as the OD6 (DD6's 6th gear is direct 1.0, but the 28 tooth comp makes it effectively .86). In all the numbers I crunched (using this calculator), the effective gear ratio of all gears (due to the change in primary ratio) of the DD6 is the same as the gear ratio in the OD6 (with stock primary ratio), but the overall ratio (engine to rear wheel) is different (one is 2.9 and the other is 3.-something) and the DD6 causes a lower RPM at any given speed than the OD6.

But anyway, 99% of my riding is not touring, though getting from town to town here can take 30+ minutes with 20 minutes of that being on the highway at 70 mph (which is exactly when I start looking for another gear).

I knew full well that I wouldn't use the 6th gear much. I was mainly on the fence about it not because of price, but whether it would hinder performance or change the feel. And I don't want to go through the labor of swapping the guts. The SE 6-speed transmission for mine is $2,100 and the DD6 builders kit guts are $2,495.00. I couldn't find online the gear ratios for that specific SE 6 speed, though one place I saw pegged the 6th gear at .89 (which is a less drastic overdrive than the .86 of the Baker, but apparently uses the same 2.95 or whatever first gear as the Baker as best I can tell). Even though Baker recommended the DD6, I wasn't sure if they understood what I was asking about (I don't want to sacrifice acceleration for better mpg and lower cruising RPMs).

So, I looked at just swapping the transmission out as a whole and it's around $3600 for the Baker DD6 complete (fully assembled case) with everything I need (speed sensor recalibration module, the new compensator and different pitch chain, etc). I'd personally pay that much to just swap the whole transmission instead of taking one apart and putting new guts. I both am and am not really worried about money. There's some instances where I try to save and others I am not worried about it. As long as I have enough for an emergency (which I now do), I am fine.

What 6 speed did you have in it, do you recall? And what was the model and year and build on that Evo? I was reading about the Evo softails and I think in 1992 or 1994, they changed the overall ratio by changing the primary ratios. I think before the primary had a more aggressive ratio, like 24/37 or something? Maybe the ratio from transmission to rear wheel was different too? I don't remember at the moment, but I do know mine stock is 25/36 in the primary.

Just found the thing I was reading about it (https://www.hotbikeweb.com/motorcycle-v-twin-drivetrain-drivetrain-basics#page-5):
Starting in 1995, all Evolution Softail Big Twins were shipped from the factory with a 2.92:1 final drive ratio (a 1.44 primary ratio multiplied by a 2.03 secondary ratio equals 2.92) while all other Evo Big Twins shipped with a 3.15:1 final drive ratio (a 1.44 primary ratio multiplied by a 2.19 secondary ratio equals a 3.15). Most 1993 and earlier Evo Big Twins came with a 3.37:1 final drive ratio. The pattern we see here is that 1995 and later Softails have a higher (lower numerically) final drive ratio (2.92:1) than the other models. This means the engine's crankshaft turns 2.92 revolutions for every revolution of the rear wheel. All things being equal, this gives the Softail less acceleration than the other models but requires less rpm at highway speeds for smoother running.
 

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I had a revtech (I know, I know, it was in the bike when I bought it and had to put in a stock 5 speed a few months later when it tanked) 6 speed in a '97 FLHT
 

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weird member
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Discussion Starter #16
I had a revtech (I know, I know, it was in the bike when I bought it and had to put in a stock 5 speed a few months later when it tanked) 6 speed in a '97 FLHT
See, trying to research this suff too, every time I see someone talk about having a 6-speed, it's ALWAYS a heavier FL bike, and usually a touring or close to touring (is a RK considered touring or just part of the standard softail line?) like the FLH. The Baker guy that recommended the DD6 for me has an FLH.

I thought about doing a search for people with Dyna's using 6-speeds, since they're more likely to have lighter ones like mine (like the Wide Glides).

So that's another thing that's mmade figuring this stuff out kind of difficult.

A quick search and it looks like the close first ratio and OD ratio is the same on the RevTech as the SE 6-speed transmission (2.94 and .89), but who knows if that's been updated from a different ratio when it was put on the bike you had.
 

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weird member
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Discussion Starter #18
I can't seem to find the gear ratios anywhere for a stock 5-speed transmission on late model Evos and even with Harley, there's some confusion.

I looked up the owners manual (1997 Harley Owners Manual) on the HD-sip site and it says the overall ratio for first gear is 9.388 on a Softail and 10.11 on a Dyna, but my factory service manual for my bike (1997/1998 Harley Softail Factory Service Manual) says the overall is 10.11.

So I can't even figure out what the actual gearing is. Roughly a 3.2-3.21 is about 9.388, and a 3.45-3.46 is about 10.11 overall ratio for the first gear, considering all my other stock ratios that I know are right (25/36 primary, 32/65 final drive).

So, I just used the 3.24 first gear through 1.0 for 5th, which is as best I can tell is the stock Harley 5 speed for late model Evos.

The DD6 with 28 tooth compensator has the same effective transmission ratio as the OD6 with 25 tooth compensator (though I am not sure with the optional first gear on the DD6 order page if that's a 2.94 gear or an effective 2.94 assuming 28 tooth comp sprocket; it doesn't list a 3.77 first gear in the options, which would be an effective 3.24 which I think is maybe the standard first if you don't choose a different first gear in the options, so I am assuming the option 2.94 is actual and not effective).

Overall ratios (engine to rear wheel; based on direct drive gear):
• Stock............................................. 2.925
• Baker OD6..................................... 2.925
• Baker DD6 w/ 28 tooth comp...... 2.611

Regarding overall ratios:
• Bigger number = smaller ratio, better acceleration, higher running RPM at a given speed, lower efficiency/MPG
• Smaller number = bigger ratio, less acceleration, lower running RPM at a given speed, greater efficiency/MPG

The pictures below are the calculated ratios for stock 5 speed, then OD6, then DD6 with 28 tooth comp (both Bakers using the 2.94 first gear recommended for dynas and softails; the 3.24 is recommended for touring softails and the 2.82 is an optional race gear available only on the OD6).
 

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weird member
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Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
Well, one more thing of why I want to change the transmission...

Without these coming upgrades, the first gear ratio isn't that great. It kind of runs out too fast. Like, I could take off in second gear with almost no lug, though I couldn't take off very fast obviously, but if the ratio was a little closer to second gear, that would have been great even before these upgrades. Almost like the stock first gear is great when my wife was on the back, but riding solo, was a little annoying.

But again, all this gearing crap is confusing and there's no real "explain it like I'm stupid" anywhere. Like nobody can just say "if you got a light bike with a stage 3 Evo and you don't want to alter every ratio from primary to tranny to final drive, go with this option".

It basically boils down to: stick with the stock 5 speed, go with the OD6 and no other drive ratio mods, or go with the DD6 and only change the comp sprocket and no other ratios. But so many that swapped had a 24/37 primary rather than 25/36, so I can't even tell. Then others say 6th is a lug on this or that and keep talking about this and that CI when what really matters is the torque and HP for the weight, regardless of the size of the motor (size changes the torque and HP). Then others say a modded Evo pulls the 6th fine at 75 mph while others say it doesn't unless you do 90 mph.

Like, I just want the stock final drive 32/65, want the same basic feel that I have with the stock 5 speed, and a 6th just for highway cruising at 75+ mph. I'm already going to be getting plenty of a boost from the engine mods, I'm not out to street race.

There's so much contradictory info on the gearing between primary and transmission and then going into final drive ratios.

I might just stay with my stock 5 speed.
 

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Proud Infidel
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I might just stay with my stock 5 speed.
That's what I would do if you still consider the DD6. It's still 1:1 final drive, just like the 5 spd.

It's just math, Kyle. Using a calculator helps.

And math doesn't lie.

Sent from here to there.
 
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