[67Duce]

I've been a big advocate of the FP3 tuner for a while , I've felt it's a good product and it is however it seems there may some not so good short comings with the Auto-tune feature.

This was post by GMR Performance on their FB page :

Vance & Hines FuelPak 3 (FP3)
It's time for a honest conversation about this tuner shall we?
A few years ago it was launched as the first tuner capable of "auto tuning" your motorcycle via a free App on your cell phone.
It's no secret Smart phones are here to stay. You are probably using one now. You're in constant contact with your loved ones with it. With the FP3 you can be in contact with your other love; Your Harley!
Man it's pure marketing genius! It can flash your ECM with tune that somebody, somewhere developed with some bike and then you can magically turn the auto-tune fiction... I mean function on and tune your beloved companion to perfect by yourself! For FREE!! What can go wrong? How awesome!
SUCKER- You've just been made a target market!
Now for the truth.
-Can you choose from hundreds of tunes? Yes
-You can do it by yourself using your smartphone?
Yes
-it's capable of "Auto Tuning" using your factory 02 o2 sensors?
Yes
"Auto Tuning".... I know you're now thinking "why does he always put "Auto Tuning" in quotations?
"Auto Tuning" isn't really doing what you've been marketed to believe. What it's actually doing is changing the Desired target air:fuel ratio to what your factory closed loop system (means active 02 sensors) are capable or reading and sets the entire fuel map into a very lean 14.4 target
-Why is this a bad idea?
Because your ignition timing map was created using air/fuel ratios of 12.5 to 14.6.
-Why should that matter?
Timing is everything!
-All exhaust systems are not created equally
O2 sensors on many aftermarket exhaust systems are placed in areas easily accessible for YOU or your mechanic to get to but may not be in a area of where the actual exhaust gases are flowing inside of the pipe. Think of how a river flows for this. The exhaust gasses much like flowing water do not like to go around corners.
02 sensors would totally screw up the looks of your exhaust system if placed where they should go. Instead manufactures hide them in places that are often times on inside bends of a exhaust Header where the exhaust gasses aren't even touching them! Another false reading will be guaranteed by a 02 sensor bung that is so long that the sensor can't reach into the flow of exhaust gasses. O2 sensor adapters will do the same thing as too long of bung. This gives the 02 sensor a false lean reading and in turn overcompensates the fuel adjustment actually causing your engine to run stinking rich.
You've all heard a bike pulling up to stop light popping or backfiring like crazy right? Most of the time the bike is running a very loud, zero restriction exhaust system. The popping is actually caused by exhaust reversion (pulling raw fuel from the cam overlap where the exhaust valve is still open while the intake valve is just starting to open) Reversion popping is caused from from raw fuel coming in contact with the hot exhaust pipe causing a pop when the fuel is ignited within the pipe.
Guess what? The 02 sensors just received a whole bunch of false readings from all that popping and banging.
Well engineered exhaust systems give the exhaust a pulse. Think of s heart monitor pulse rate that only moves in one direction, out the tail pipe.
Poor exhaust systems that are wide open do not give the exhaust system a good pulse so they flat-line and allow the exhaust to travel in and out of the tail pipe. (Exhaust reversion is amplified with these system)
Guess what? 02 sensors in wide open exhaust systems are worthless because of all the false readings they get.
Here is a common complaint I hear almost everyday.
Prospective customer- "My bike runs great in some areas with the FP3 and like shit in others"
Dyno Guy- let me guess, at cruise speed it runs great and full throttle it's crap right?
Prospective Customer- Exactly! How did you know that?
Dyno Guy- I'm a Jonny Carson, Karnak fan.
Prospective customer- Crickets
Dyno Guy- that's because the auto tune function was set to read 14.4 at high engine load areas and is running lean or your 02 sensors have been receiving false lean readings and you're running very rich in some high load areas.
Prospective customer- ok, so what do you recommend I do?
Dyno Guy- Sounds like you need a dyno tune and a different tuning system
Prospective Customer- I just paid $450 for this one! Why can't you use the FP3?
Dyno Guy- because I have no way to enter my data into your tables without going through hundreds of of cells manually.
Prospective Customer- man this sucks, I should of just paid you guys to tune this thing right the first time instead of buying this thing.
Dyno Guys- yeah, I hear you. Would you like to schedule a tune?
Prospective customer- Yeah, we better.
This conversation is played out all too often. I really wish Vance & Hines would offer a interface that professionals could use to tune the FP3's. If they did, they'd have a great product. Until that day, I might go into the pet rock FP3 paperweight business with all the useless FP3's I've collected.
Vance & Hines! Please do your current customers and mine the service they deserve with a PC interface for professionals!!!


Some food for thought anyway .

 

[EvoRK]

That post was not Steve's he is not a fan of the fp3 if you don't believe me call and ask him. That is something he reposted from another site

 

[67Duce]

Correct he says as much about the post , he also added that he couldn't have said it better so he just posted this.

Sent from my SM-J700M using Tapatalk

 

[EvoRK]

Sorry reread the post yes you are correct he does state that the fp3 is not a good tuner

 

[Pale_Rider]

Great write up! Ever consider writing up something similar for the Power Commander V?

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

 

[67Duce]

I'm just fowarding the post made by some one else on FB . I have yet to talk to a TUNER that really likes the FP3 let alone recomends it. Sad part is I have one.

Sent from my SM-J700M using Tapatalk

 

[OHEhsc]

Have you been having any issues since you auto tuned your scooter?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[09 Softail C]

I have an FP3 on my 17' Street Glide. Used a can tune at first and then Auto Tune. Bike runs great, no decel popping and runs 20º-30º cooler. So far I am happy with it.

 

[67Duce]

Have you been having any issues since you auto tuned your scooter?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

Lots of de-cell pop , thats more attributed to running too large of baffles in my Rush mufflers though.

Just sounds like canned maps are ok but the auto tune may not be doing what we really want it to be doing.

 

[naknekpete]

I have mixed opinions on it and V&H myself.

On my 07 Deluxe with a 96" SE conversion to 103" and running a canned SE map for the conversion, the V&H map was no improvement and I thought it created some ping, so I went back to my SE map.

Point #1- so damn easy to do that with the FP3.

Then last summer I rode to Anchorage and did a dyno run on the SE map, after which I applied a pretty well completed (cells filled green) auto tune session done on the SE map and dyno'ed again.

Point #2- It wasnt dramatic but the auto tune application did bump both HP and torque about 4 to 5%.

Point #3- One of the best things I do like about the FP3 is all the info I now have available and the ability to manipulate so many things.

I do wish V&H would make it easier for tuning techs to use, whatever that takes. You would think they would see the advantage of that and getting lots of dyno tuning info back, but they seem to have the attitude that everyone but them are idiots. I do not care for their customer service after several conversations and attempts at conversations with them. They dont F'ing listen, and they also dont want to be bothered.

I do like their pipes though, my Big Shots Long are thunderous. I even had to tone them down with "quiet" baffles.

I would like to see what improvements I might be able to get with a real dyno tuning session, but even though I also have a SERT, the cost ($500 in Alaska) is prohibitive, at least for now.

The bottom line to me is that while I agree it may not be the best tuner available, its the best tuner available for the money. The PCV is better, sure, but at twice the price, not to mention the fact that you have to spend another big chunk of change on an auto-tune module.

And damnit Duce, you just gave Evo lots of ammo! You gotta know he loves to hate on the FP3!

 

[67Duce]

naknekpete I was debating between the FP3 and PV for quite awhile and ended up getting the FP3. Finding an FP3 for just south of $300 helped sway my vote vs $500 for a PV .

Fuel Moto has PV's for $400 now so had that been the case 2 years ago I would have went with the PV , I'm considering biting the bullet and switching now because of the PV's dyno -tune-ability and support from Fuel Moto , the price is more appealing also. Consider that I may be adding cams and a 107 kit along with a dyno tune the PV makes more sense.

Evo is just speaking from what tuners like GMR , Drago , Fuel Moto will also tell you. I think the FP3 helped but I gotta wonder how it's reading my narrow band O2's, I've wasted more money on hookers & blow :laugh

 

[OHEhsc]

A forum brother sent me a link to another forum where V&H better explains the FP3 and new features in the pipeline. I have no idea how to share the link so I will ask him to post it. Worth reading for sure.

 

[FartBoy]

A forum brother sent me a link to another forum where V&H better explains the FP3 and new features in the pipeline. I have no idea how to share the link so I will ask him to post it. Worth reading for sure.

I found this over on Harley-Davidson Forums- I thought was interesting reading-


Vhcneely, V&H Sponsor on Harley Davison Forms

I want to clarify something with all the read ers of this thread. The FP3, PV and SE all control the same core tables for tuning. Such as but not limited to, VE tables, AFR table, Spark tables, PE tables, rev limit, idle rpm and more. The tuner is the tool one uses dial in and "tune" the bike. It is a common misconception that one device performs better than the other, when in fact it is the one who is tuning it that makes the difference. Whether it be a dyno operator, tuning specialist or kid next door, the FP3 is as flexible and powerful as you want it to be or as simple. Most dyno operators favor the use of other brand's devices because they are accustomed to it's software and have tools that integrate with their dyno. However, not everyone wants to, or needs to, dyno there bike to accomplish tuning it to their liking. BTW, you can still dyno with a FP3, the tables are still in the same native tuning format.

The FP3 has a much simpler GUI that the majority of people can pick up, and tune their bike in without the use of any other equipment, (with the exception of a smartphone of course). We have a database of over 10,000 maps ranging from completely bone stock to intake, exhaust and more. We have 5 Eddy Current dynos that we use to create maps for all the specific setups and calibrations. On top of the dyno testing, we also do a specific street test to ensure optimal ride-ability and economy. Suffice to say, that the FP3 is NOT a simple Stage 1 replacement device. But a device that can grow with your bike's build.

In the next update we will be offering a new feature for you to select your camshaft from a list of over 50+ aftermarket cams. This will make the adjustments for your map for IVO and IVC. Then run the AutoTune to smooth the rest of the map over. You can change displacement, injector flow rating and more for the more intense setups.

Another feature that is commonly overlooked, (and the OP has direct experience with as well) is our Customer Service area. We can make specific adjustments to your map and send it right back to your phone, all remotely. One such example is decel popping. Some setups have more than others and need an extra adjustment. All the user has to do is upload their map via the customer support tab, send us their VIN and we can make the adjustments if the user is not comfortable or does not know what to change. All the user will have to do is click "Download and Flash" and it will flash that map and its changes directly into the bike. So if there is something within question or needs adjustment, we can help you out, anywhere.

The FP3 is constantly evolving. There are even more features in the pipeline that further expand the FP3's tuning arsenal as well as satisfy user requests. All are free OTA (Over the Air) updates that automatically prompt you when you connect to your FP3.

Hope this helps any readers with any questions or doubts about the FP3. If anyone has any other questions, please feel free to send us an email through the application or customer service areas.

Air/Fuel:

front/rear VE, : a percentage indicating how completely the cylinder is filling

with air.

AFR, : the desired or “target” air/fuel ratio. The ECU uses this number to

calculate how much fuel to spray.

throttle progressivity (primary and secondary): Percentage indicating how

far the throttle blade should open. Compares the amount the twist grip is

rotated and how fast the engine is running.

Throttle table switchover gear: Two tables are available so one can be more

aggressive than the other. This value indicates when to switch from the

primary to the secondary table.

Acceleration, : amount of extra fuel to add when the engine is accelerating

Deceleration, : amount of fuel to remove when decelerating

F/R charge dilution, : Amount of exhaust gases remaining in the cylinder

after the exhaust valve is closed. The computer only uses this table when

manifold pressure is less than 60 kPa.

Closed loop range, :within this range, the ECU will use O2 sensor feedback to

adjust the fuel delivery

closed loop activation temp,: minimum temperature the engine must attain

before the ECU goes into closed loop (in “closed loop”, the Oxygen sensor is

used to trim the amount of fuel sprayed into the engine).

closed loop deactivation temp,: If the engine temperature drops below this

temperature, the ECU will go from closed loop to open loop mode (in “open

loop”, the ECU does not use the Oxygen sensor to trim fuel delivery)

Map load normalization,: table to compensate MAP readings for intake flow

restrictions. You should not need to adjust this table.

intake valve opening/closing angles,: indicate to the ECU when to read the

MAP sensor. This number is converted to a crankshaft sensor tooth position.

Adaptive control min temp: Minimum temperature where the ECU will start

to save the O2 sensor trim values (“learning”)

Spark:

F/R spark,: Spark timing table. Degrees of spark advance based on engine

load (MAP) and engine speed (RPM).

spark vs. engine temp,: Table to adjust the base spark timing for different

engine temperatures.

spark vs. air temp, Table to adjust spark timing for air temperature. Gives

you the ability to pull timing out at high load with high air temperature.

spark vs. head temp,: Table to adjust spark timing for head temperature.

Gives you the ability to pull timing out at high load with high head

temperatures.

adaptive knock retard, Maximum amount of knock retard which can be

learned. Based on engine load and engine rpm.

max knock retard, Maximum amount of retard which can be applied.

knock control activation temp, Minimum temperature where knock control

will start working.

knock control deactivation temp, If the engine temperature drops below this

level, the ECU will turn off knock control.

idle spark gain, The ECU will adjust the spark timing when the engine is

idling to help control the idle speed. This number affects how aggressive the

function is. You probably don’t need to adjust this.

idle spark max, Maximum amount the spark timing will be adjusted to

smooth idle rpm.

F/R closed throttle spark, Spark timing when the throttle is closed.

Closed throttle spark max tps. Maximum TPS setting where the Closed

Throttle Spark table is used. Above this temperature, the normal spark

timing tables are used.

Performance mode:

PE afr,: Performance Enrichment mode is a special “engine preservation”

mode designed to help keep the motor from being destroyed. After a period

of time at wide-open- throttle, the engine will start to add fuel and reduce

spark timing. This table indicates the desired AFR vs time. The longer the

engine is in this mode, the AFR should slowly decrease.

PE spark, : Spark timing while in PE mode.

PE disable rpm, :Once the engine is operating in PE mode, the RPM must drop

below this level before it reverts back to normal mode.

PE enable RPM,: Engine rpm must be above this level before entering PE

mode.

PE disable TPS, Once the engine is operating in PE mode, the TPS must drop

below this level before it reverts back to normal mode.

PE enable TPS, : The throttle position must be above this level to enter PE

mode.

Startup/Idle:

cranking fuel, Amount of fuel sprayed into the engine when the cranking.

Expressed as milliseconds. Engine displacement changes may require

changes to this table.

warmup enrichment, When the engine is warming up, it requires more fuel

than when it is fully warm. This table specifies the amount of enrichment.

iac crank steps vs. temp, When cranking, there is a minimum amount of air

required to get the engine to start. This air is controlled by the IAC motor

position. When the engine is cold, more air is required. This table allows you

to adjust this relationship.

iac crank to run,

iac warmup, Table indicating the initial IAC position vs. engine temperature.

The closer these numbers are to the actual IAC position, the smoother the

initial idle will be. Displacement changes may require adjustments to this

table.

idle rpm. Desired idle speed at various engine temperatures. Warning: oil

pressure drops with engine rpm and HD warns that 900 rpm is the minimum

speed to have adequate oil pressure.

Active exhaust

First gear: The HD exhaust system includes a restriction valve on

international bikes. This valve can open and close to help meet local noise

regulations. One table per gear. The bike must be moving for the ECU to

know which gear it is in; results with the bike stopped can vary. 100 is full

open, 0 is full closed.

Second gear: table for second gear. 100 is full open, 0 is full closed.

Third gear: table for third gear. 100 is full open, 0 is full closed.

Fourth gear: table for fourth and fifth gear. 100 is full open, 0 is full closed.

General:

Rev limit, maximum engine speed allowed.

injector size, Rated size of the fuel injector.

MPG adjustment, Adjusts the MPG reading on the bike. Larger numbers show

higher MPG.

engine displacement, Engine size.

Gear ratios (first, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth): Gear ratio for each gear.

The ECU uses this info to know which gear it is in.



.

 

[Phdharley50]

Thanks for posting Fartboy. I called my local HD, Fort Worth Harley, and they will dynotune with the FP3. They said the average cost was $350 and that if I've already auto tuned with my FP3, I probably wouldn't see much power difference but they would smooth out the torque curve.

 

[OHEhsc]

I just emailed the original post to V&H support. Let's see if they get back to me.

 

[Paul HD72]

I have the FP3 on my 2015 Street Bob with V&H Slash Cut mufflers and Joker Machine air intake. The map I down loaded from V&H and flashed did improve power/torque based on my seat of the pants dyno, improved throttle response and the bike idles, accelerates and cruises smoothly with no hesitation or hick-ups throughout the rpm range. I also like having all the data the FP3 provides while riding. No complaints on my end.

 

[dynoguysmn]

Hey everyone, it's been a long time since being on here. When I decided to write this I had no clue how fast it would be past around! Lol, it went around the world in less than 24hrs. V&H has not contacted me. I've spoke to them several times about the subject and it's obvious to me that they want to keep it limited to the App.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[herbhall]

My 2007 Sportster 1200C ran poor when I got it. It had the V&H slip on's and a dealer flash. Last year I added the quiet baffles (it had none) and replaced the stock dirty filter with a K&N high flow and the FuelPak FP3. When I initially flashed the stock map for my setup it ran pretty good, better than before. Then I tried to auto tune (without reading the instructions) and the bike started having issues again. I flashed it and tried to auto tune it several times. I was pretty frustrated last fall, it just wasn't right. I was ready to give up on the FP3 and just pay to have it tuned.

This spring I took the time to read the instructions. I downloaded a new updated map (I think I may have gotten the wrong one before, but I'm not sure). This time the stock map was fantastic! I properly auto tuned, but I didn't see much difference because all my issues were gone and the bike runs like it's supposed to. I'm not into high performance, super loud, changing parts all the time to get little more HP or Torque. I don't care about dyno numbers, I just want to have fun riding, so for me the FP3 works really well.

 

[Bohemian]

I have a FP3 on my 2018 M8 107 FLRT ...

RTFM & you'll be happy...

Some things to note about the FP3 ...
1. As of the time of this post NO ONE else offers a cell phone interface app (that i've been able to find).
2. Depending on the severity of seasons & or weather you live in and ride in whether you dyno tuno or auto tune with any product; you need to retune (be it via dyno or auto tune) when your riding & or weather changes significantly. I live in Las Vegas & ride pretty much 365. And I have to autotune twice a year. There's nothing I've not been able to tweak using the FP3 out of the box so far.
Unless you're the rich & famous you don't want to be paying for dyno re-tune's 2 or more times a year.
3. Some dyno guru's have noted that the fp3 does not currently give you control over timing, that is a fair statement hopefully that will be forthcoming in a future update from v&h but for myself I'm not sure I would need it for my style of riding, I have a mild cam upgrade, v&h headers and a high flow air cleaner and it goes as fast as i want to go and up any grade mountain i want in stride.
4. Decel pop control, this is a common problem as soon as you start changing air cleaners, exhausts and cams on any modern H-D. the fp3 gives you easy control over that out of the box, if you still have problems you can upload your current map 24x7 and they'll tweak it and get it right back to you for FREE!
This goes for anything else as well.
5. Throttle aggressivness... fp3 also gives you easy control over this out of the box.
6. imho it's pretty hard to beat the cost effectiveness of a fp3 and i've been running it on my m8 since i bought the bike new in july 2018... two years plus of everyday riding from snow on the ground to blistering 115+ summer days. Up & down 6-8% grades, 10k ft plus at vale summit pass, sturgus road trips and more, pretty diverse real world riding.