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Shovelhead
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Discussion Starter #1
I've installed a set of SE 203 cams in my 09 FLHX. I already have Rinehart slip ons, SE Heavy Breather, SERT and V&H true dual head pipes. Before the cam install 45-50 mpg. after lucky to get 30 mpg??? Bike runs great way more torque but is running rich. Dealer did the SERT program but, I should be doing better than 30mpg. Others are telling me I need a fuel management system? The SERT can also adjust this from what they say. I've put 800 miles on since the cam install. The dealer as expected, tells me to keep riding it and that's what the mpg is going to be. The oil smells like gas that's too rich to me!! Any input would be great. :eek7:(:eek: I've stopped riding it until I get it right. The oil smelling like gas ain't right. Do I need to get it dyno tuned? and or fuel management?? Thanks
 

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Yup, get it dyno tuned. You don't need additional fuel management, SERT is your fuel management.
 

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Shovelhead
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Discussion Starter #3
Yup, get it dyno tuned. You don't need additional fuel management, SERT is your fuel management.
Thanks for the quick reply Kainam. However, if the SERT is the fuel managemant sytem why isn't the program that the dealer set up working? I was understanding that all I needed was to remap the SERT? What will the dyno do?
 

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I {Heart} Hookers.
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31,321 Posts
I've installed a set of SE 203 cams in my 09 FLHX. I already have Rinehart slip ons, SE Heavy Breather, SERT and V&H true dual head pipes. Before the cam install 45-50 mpg. after lucky to get 30 mpg??? Bike runs great way more torque but is running rich. Dealer did the SERT program but, I should be doing better than 30mpg. Others are telling me I need a fuel management system? The SERT can also adjust this from what they say. I've put 800 miles on since the cam install. The dealer as expected, tells me to keep riding it and that's what the mpg is going to be. The oil smells like gas that's too rich to me!! Any input would be great. :eek7:(:eek: I've stopped riding it until I get it right. The oil smelling like gas ain't right. Do I need to get it dyno tuned? and or fuel management?? Thanks
SERT is a fuel management system. You're obviously mapped way too rich.............the fuel smell and decrease in fuel mileage are a clear indication.

If the dealer who mapped it said it's fine, then ask them to run it on their Dyno with a 3 gas analyzer and prove it, as the oil smell and MPG say otherwise.............
 

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What Dave said....

A dyno tune with the exhaust analyzer will tell you exactly what AF ratio your motor is running at, at all RPM ranges and throttle positions.

It sounds like your dealer just used a canned map when programming your SERT, and possibly installed the wrong one for your engine combination.

I would expect to see 40+ MPG on the highway with that cam.... atleast that is what I get, with a carb mind you, with a much more radical cam.
 

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Shovelhead
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391 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
SERT is a fuel management system. You're obviously mapped way too rich.............the fuel smell and decrease in fuel mileage are a clear indication.

If the dealer who mapped it said it's fine, then ask them to run it on their Dyno with a 3 gas analyzer and prove it, as the oil smell and MPG say otherwise.............

That's the first problem. They don't HAVE a dyno!!!! I don't understand how HD let's their dealership operate with out a dyno.
 

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I {Heart} Hookers.
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That's the first problem. They don't HAVE a dyno!!!! I don't understand how HD let's their dealership operate with out a dyno.
I can understand how a dealer can exist without a Dyno, but I can't understand how they call themselves "Certified" dealers for sales of SERT or PC products or venture to install and stand behind FUEL MANAGEMENT PROGRAMMING.

If you're going to sell MAPs and fuel management systems, how can you test your own work?

Hacks.
 

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Shovelhead
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Discussion Starter #8
I would expect to see 40+ MPG on the highway with that cam....
Exactly my expectations!

What worries me is the gas smell in the oil?? Won't this accelerate piston rings wear??

I would also need to find a dyno tuner that is familiar with SERT too I guess. Not many around here. I'll have to call other area dealers to see if they have a dyno. Might be taken the cams out if I'm unable to get it right. Thanks guys
 

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I {Heart} Hookers.
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Exactly my expectations!

What worries me is the gas smell in the oil?? Won't this accelerate piston rings wear??
Worse. Gasoline permiated oil thins out and will reduce lubrcation capabilities at critcal points like crankshaft bearings and cam bearings.

It can also lead to cylinder damage, not just rings.
 

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The Northern Redneck
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Run your scoot down the road at say 3,000 rpm for a couple miles...Shut off the motor while it is at this rpm...pull to the side of the road and pull your spark plugs, I usually pull the rear one.. look at the plug...Black = too rich (poor gas milage), White = too lean (engine can run hot), Tan = correct setting on fuel system.... That much decrease sounds like a Maping problem...Have it dyno tuned...preferably by an independant firm who deals with Harleys....I have a 49 state bike, took it into a dealer in CA (not a 49 state dealer), for a 10K service,,got my bike bike and they had monkeyed with my fine adjust on my Power Commander setting all 3 fuel management zones to 0 from what they had been...My bike was backfiring and the fuel milage was jacked up plus they leaned me way out....All they were supposed to do was put new spark plugs in....Needless to say I had words with the mechanic, the service manager, and the owner of the dealership....They offered me a free service for the inconvienence...Yeah right... I do my own now...So, what I'm saying is don't be too trusting that things will be right...The dealer that messed up my system was doing 200+ bikes a day in their service department....kinda hard to give you the personal service and attention to detail when they are doing bikes like a herd of cattle....
 

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when did it start 4u
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I dont understand how the dealer can tune a bike without a dyno, how do they tune WOT on the bike with a constent A\F reading like you would on a dyno??? I am lost here I can see tunning on the street but that doesnt tune for WOT , plus you should have a lot better mpg than that
 

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I {Heart} Hookers.
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31,321 Posts
I dont understand how the dealer can tune a bike without a dyno, how do they tune WOT on the bike with a constent A\F reading like you would on a dyno??? I am lost here I can see tunning on the street but that doesnt tune for WOT , plus you should have a lot better mpg than that
The MAPs that dealers install are cookie cutter MAPs made by other people, in other locations and are considered "close enough" in most cases. In most cases, they are....

Elevation, Barometric pressure, Humidity all play a role in a bike's current a/f mixture, but on an EFI bike, if you get it within a certain percent, you'll be fine.

Of course, that's assuming the MAP used is correct for the bike's mods.

In this case....................FAIL.
 

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when did it start 4u
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yea one thing I dont think I would do with a FI, on a bike ....not big on the tunning for bikes with the FI I have done a lot on my gto with HPtuners that is car specfic more of a you make your own map for your car any your mods....
 

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Shovelhead
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391 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
The MAPs that dealers install are cookie cutter MAPs made by other people, in other locations and are considered "close enough" in most cases. In most cases, they are....

Elevation, Barometric pressure, Humidity all play a role in a bike's current a/f mixture, but on an EFI bike, if you get it within a certain percent, you'll be fine.

Of course, that's assuming the MAP used is correct for the bike's mods.

In this case....................FAIL.
I have been incontact with Head-Quaters and this is what they say I need.

It does axcactly that adjust to elevation, barometric pressure, weight and riding style.

I just received an email from them. They say the SERT doesn't adjust A/F mixture???

http://www.head-quarters-usa.com/efituning.html

These guys seem up on their EFI systems
 

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I {Heart} Hookers.
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31,321 Posts
I think you're confusing "changes a/f mixture" with "Reprograms" your a/f mixture.



The SERT most certainly changes a/f ratios, (adds or subtracts fuel) based on the programmed MAP that's downloaded into it.

It doesn't change them in a real-time manner like the 2007-2009 closed loop Delphi system does, but it REPROGRAMS your existing MAP.

From the web-site:

Harley-Davidson's Screamin' Eagle Race Tuner is a software map-based reprogrammer that requires no add-on module because it has the ability to reprogram the stock ECM. The Race Tuner software allows connecting a PC to the stock ECM. Once the Race Tuner uploads a new map into the stock ECM, the PC and required hardware key are removed and no additional parts remain on the bike. ECM fuel, ignition, start-up, warm-up, and rev limit values can be modified. The Race Tuner also includes a function for setting injector size for greater tuning flexibility. Several operating modes are available, from basic to advanced and data monitoring. The Race Tuner and Power Commander are similar in that fuel map cells represent the percentage of change, either plus or minus.

Remember that the objectives are to increase airflow while adding fuel through either jetting or fuel mapping changes to maintain an optimum fuel ratio for maximum power.


Link:
http://www.hotbikeweb.com/tech/0804_hbkp_induction_system_basics/screamin_eagle_race_tuner.html
 

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SNAFU organizer
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4,127 Posts
It's just lame that the dealer does all that performance work to your bike and can't do the critical fine tuning. they ought limit themselves to oil changes and tires.
My dealer goes thru alot of bikes every day too. They have a full time tuner that you can watch in the waiting area on a CCTV.
Sounds like your dealer is just being cheap.
 

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Shovelhead
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391 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
I think you're confusing "changes a/f mixture" with "Reprograms" your a/f mixture.



The SERT most certainly changes a/f ratios, (adds or subtracts fuel) based on the programmed MAP that's downloaded into it.

It doesn't change them in a real-time manner like the 2007-2009 closed loop Delphi system does, but it REPROGRAMS your existing MAP.

From the web-site:

Harley-Davidson's Screamin' Eagle Race Tuner is a software map-based reprogrammer that requires no add-on module because it has the ability to reprogram the stock ECM. The Race Tuner software allows connecting a PC to the stock ECM. Once the Race Tuner uploads a new map into the stock ECM, the PC and required hardware key are removed and no additional parts remain on the bike. ECM fuel, ignition, start-up, warm-up, and rev limit values can be modified. The Race Tuner also includes a function for setting injector size for greater tuning flexibility. Several operating modes are available, from basic to advanced and data monitoring. The Race Tuner and Power Commander are similar in that fuel map cells represent the percentage of change, either plus or minus.

Remember that the objectives are to increase airflow while adding fuel through either jetting or fuel mapping changes to maintain an optimum fuel ratio for maximum power.


Link:
http://www.hotbikeweb.com/tech/0804_hbkp_induction_system_basics/screamin_eagle_race_tuner.html

So then the dealer should be able to lean it out, right?

It's possible they reprogramed it wrong or used the wrong map for the upgrades which are common.

I'll stop by there this afternoon and talk to the service manager.

I really shouldn't have to go with another fuel management device?

Thanks again for all the input.
 

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when did it start 4u
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My dealer goes thru alot of bikes every day too. They have a full time tuner that you can watch in the waiting area on a CCTV.
Sounds like your dealer is just being cheap.

now that is pretty cool. I like the dealers where you can actually see them working on the bike and what not
 

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I {Heart} Hookers.
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31,321 Posts
So then the dealer should be able to lean it out, right?
It's possible they reprogramed it wrong or used the wrong map for the upgrades which are common.

I'll stop by there this afternoon and talk to the service manager.

I really shouldn't have to go with another fuel management device?

Thanks again for all the input.
Yes. With a MAP that isn't so rich through the rev range.
 

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The Northern Redneck
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7,170 Posts
The dealer does the basic Map to stock standards, Several state won't allow any change in pipes, intake, cams, etc...That's why an aftermarket EFI tuner can be helpful as they have Maps for all kind of setup with aftermarket parts, ex: cams, V & H pipes, Thunderheaders, a multitude of intake changes and big bore kits...and these Maps are very user friendly to fine tune, I can do my in my garage without my computer using only a jumper plugin and a 9 volt battery....
 
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