Courthouse News Service

(CN) - Police cannot frisk motorcyclists for weapons even if they are wearing gang insignia and speeding through rival territory, the Delaware Supreme Court ruled.
On the morning of June 4, 2011, David Abel was sporting a Hells Angels vest while he and another motorcyclist were doing 80 mph on a 55 mph stretch of the I-95 in Delaware, a known territory of the rival gang Pagans Motorcycle Club.
Federal and state law enforcement classify the Hells Angels, the Pagans and two other groups as outlaw motorcycle gangs in the United States, calling the clubs a conduit for criminal activity.
State Trooper John Andrew Lloyd pulled Abel over to the left shoulder of the highway, and another officer stopped Abel's companion on the other side.
As recorded by Lloyd's patrol car camera, "Abel remained calm and his hands remained primarily in view on the handlebars of the motorcycle," the Superior Court found in 2011.
The footage shows that when Lloyd asked Abel where he was headed, he replied, "We're going out on a run today."
Abel maintained a "jovial" disposition as he continued to rebuff Lloyd's questions, the court found.

Follow link at top for more.

That phrase right there makes me want to punch a bunny in the face. WE ARE NOT GANGS


-Rohan

 

Semantics, Rohan. Gang, Club.... It shows membership to a specific organization.
Call it what you want. People will always seem to refer to it as a Gang. I think that's human nature, or a portion of the "uneducated" society that biker's will always have to deal with. Sadly enough....


With that being said, it's not a reason, any more then your ethnicity, to me, to be used to frisk someone. I know professionals that carry weapons. So do we start frisking every guy in a suit?

Granted, if the operators were speeding, (80mph in a 65 zone) there's the probable cause for the traffic stop. However, the officer still needs "reasonable suspicion" for the personal search, or pat-down.

Police have the right to frisk you, if they have "reasonable suspicion". That definition is something that's being defined, in this case. Simply wearing colors, in Delaware at least, is no reason to be patted down.

 

Well you have to remember the average "Joe", myself included, knows nothing about these motorcycle clubs other than what they see on the History Channel or read in the papers and that is nothing good.

That doesn't mean someone belonging to any club should automatically be assumed to have any less in the way of civil rights IMHO, it's just general public perception and the end of that article fed on that.

When I was in the Navy I met a couple of HA's at a party in San Diego in the mid 70's, they didn't seem anymore "evil" than anyone else there (myself included) but I'd have to admit I'd probably be looking for the next exit if I found myself surrounded by a group of them today.

Then again, if I saw one broke down along the road I'd still ask if he needed help.

I like riding with others from time to time as much as the next person, but I've never been drawn to the club atmosphere and get along just fine alone.

 

I'm an expert on the motorcycle Club/Gangs... I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express for 2 week2 and watched 3 seasons of The Sons of Anarchy every night.

But really, here in Washington, they can't search bags or saddle bags without cause or a warrent.

 

I have the distinction of being the guy in the wrong bar at the wrong time when some Prospect is sent in to pick the biggest guy and ambush him when he is coming out of the bathroom.

Two times.

Two times. Swear to God.

Many, many thanks to The Breed. I held my own the second time, btw....

 

I wanna see a comercial with a small monkey jump out of a guys saddle bag and smack the cop for pulling him over for something dumb. Or for City Breed who should find different bars to hag in, have the monkey jump out and rip the prospect to pieces. I wonder if the comercial showed in San Fransisco if a saddle bag gerbel jumps out... never mind

 

I wanna see a comercial with a small monkey jump out of a guys saddle bag and smack the cop for pulling him over for something dumb. Or for City Breed who should find different bars to hag in, have the monkey jump out and rip the prospect to pieces. I wonder if the comercial showed in San Fransisco if a saddle bag gerbel jumps out... never mind

LOLOLOLOLOL :rollin :laugh



-Rohan

 

I am not a member of an MC but have to say that anytime I have had contact or the opportunity to speak with a member(s) of one of two MCs in WA, I have found them to be friendly, out going, respectful and oh wait...just like me!! I think we all have our civil rights until we give justifiable reason to take them away. I don't see that in the story the OP listed. Glad to hear they threw out the weapons charge.

 

City Breed learned his lesson years ago and stays home now.

 

I agree, had many run ins with the MCs here in WA and have had no issues. Most seem nice but if they're stopped at the local watering hole, I don't stop in out of respect, plus I don't want to get my azz beat...:laugh

 

How do you know if a club is in the bar, or do you just avoid bars with bikes out front?

 

Reasonable suspicion by association? Happy they said no.

 

Agreed. That would open an officers descension of reasonable suspicion to anything if he could show some connection. This is one of the reasons the excuse of "The car swerved over the line" is no longer an excuse for a traffic stop in PA. As much as the Rico Act allows for certain applications of "guilty by association" issues, a line has to be drawn somewhere.
Despite people's perception of MCs, they still have the same rights as Joe Average citizen.

 

I have nothing against patch M/C riders...or any riders...but was at a Toys for Tots deal at the local dealer yesterday.....lot of people...lot of kids...they had the big inflatable slides and bounce houses and such...a good family type gathering.....and dont get me wrong I have nothing against this....at the right place......but.......of course their was the local patch wearing "wanabes" who think they are badass's out on the parking lot smokeing pot... I parked beside them....got off my bike....I looked around and said... "there is kids all around here man" and kinda gave them the what the f**k are yall doing look... they then started with the F U's and F off.......being the a-hole Iam...I went straight in and told the owner of the dealer..who came right out and run them off....but the point Iam making is...it only takes one or two of these douche bags to give all of them or us a bad name....

 

I used to work for a memeber of the H.A when I was a kid its was my fathers friend..nicest guy ever to me he taught me believe it or not right from wrong and was quick to slap the shit outa me if I acted like a punk... but too this day I respect him..I got to do a few runs gotta say it is a awesome feeling belonging to a huge group

 

He sounds like ... well ... just about every adult I grew up around and cared about, or had any respect for.

Unfortunetly if the media did a story about him, it would probably be centered on physical child abuse.

 

With all the dirty cops , wearing the same uniform , why aren't they considered a RICO-gang?

 

Omg

Law Enforcement uses the term outlaw motorcycle gang for the Hell's Angels and the Pagans. The court decided that membership and location and a traffic infraction did not provide grounds for search. The courts have usually ruled this way. The Officer was correct in his suspicions BUT he still didn't really have grounds to search. We all need these decisions or we would all be subject to traffic stop searches.

 

Actually they are all clubs, they have a charter, hold meetings and have a defined purpose.

And they usually want to be viewed for what they are Motorcycle Club, Riding Club, or Association.

The term "outlaw" only means they don't necessarily live by society's rules. That can be done in many cases without actually breaking any law.

 

Most police are going to find a reason other then the real reason if; "they" deem the situation to be a threat, or some "other" reason. Just like MC's there good cops who respect the law and there the ones that don't. Call it what you want the HA have some history and under certain circumstances require a certain amount of tact. I can imagine if any MC was up to any sinister activity most likely they would leave their patches at home. The best way to hide from the law is ride like Joe Citizen. I guess the cop should pat everyone down. Even the Shiners in those funny little cars, Girl Scouts and little old ladies.

Judges rule and make decision. Police officers enforce the laws. I guess the system worked in this case; The cop interpreted the law and the Judge ruled that the cop was wrong. Today there is no letter of the law. Our judicial system is a web of interpretation and rulings.

Remember one thing, "In America your innocent until broke"!!!

 

.......... Remember one thing, "In America your innocent until broke"!!!

Once involved in the judicial system, there is a lot of truth in that statement.

 

Bet ya a dollar that HA wasn't on his way to shoot up a school.

 

In any search, warranted or not- you might beat the case but you'll never beat the ride. In that being said, you get stopped arrested towed, arraigned, bailed or bonded, or released for unlawful searchs in some conditions. LEO's just doing their jobs........:tinfoilhat:

Then if somebodys holdin dirty, doesn't matter why you get stopped.

 

I'm laughing as I stir the pot a little here, but I find it funny that someone who once posted, "that's right, I once heard George Christie, at that time he was president of HA Ventura Ca, talking about club membership, he said something like: you have to ask yourself, do you really want to be a member of an organisation that will likely have you end up in jail?" is now defending the HA in this thread.

 

I always defend any organization that is persecuted by law enforcement.

 

Well from what I read in the article they where traveling 25 mph over the posted speed limit. In Missouri 20 mph over the speed limit "can" land you in jail if the officer wishes to arrest. Anything less is always a "signature bond", above depends on what kind of day the cop is having.

So around here what the officer should have done if he/she really wanted to make it stick is after asking if he was armed, simply arrested him on the speeding, then filed additional charges on the firearms violation after the search.

You HAVE to give them your name if asked.
You SHOULD confirm if you are in the military and show them your papers if asked or if they find out you are and bitch to your command you might face charges.
You are SUPPOSE to tell them if you are armed if asked (how you going to prove without a search)
Other than that you don't have to answer any questions.

 

If you are operating a motor vehicle, you HAVE to carry identification and present it when asked. I agree you should tell them if you are military and it is in your best interest to tell them you are armed. I am fairly certain that is part of the concealed carry laws here in Oregon.

 

Here in Ontario, none of this would have been an issue, because evidence obtained in an illegal search is admissible. Cops just do what they want, seize what they want. They may get their wrist slapped, but absolute worst case scenario the cop may get a short suspension (with pay). That's what happens when you live in a country (Canada) that has no constitutional rights guaranteed.

BTW, if ALL motorists were searched for weapons, or it was legal for ALL motorists to be searched for weapons for this speeding infraction, it wouldn't bother me a bit if these HA's were searched. They were speeding and the one HA was carrying illegal weapons. My only issue has to do with targeting them because they were club members.

 

For the most part, I agree with you Chris, and while I don't know about any other state, anything under 20 mph over the speed limit (Here anyway) and the cop would have not been able to arrest nor perform a search (unless consented to).

From the article I assume (we all know what that means) that he had no intention of arresting for the traffic violation yet he wanted a search. In a way I'm surprised they threw it out because the guy at the point he told him he was going to do a pat down admitted to having firearms.

There is the reason to search and arrest on the gun charge.

I'm glad it turned out the way it did however I can't help thinking he's lucky. The first thing I'd have asked when told someone was going to do a pat down on me would be "am I under arrest?".

If the answer was "no" then the next would be "May I go now?". And I'd have kept up that circular form of argument until I was allowed to go or arrested.

The guy was speeding which is why he was stopped. Had he been stopped simply because of his colors then that would have been "Targeting".

To me, the only real point is the majority of judges agreed that simply wearing colors doesn't meet "Reasonable Suspicion".

From the cop's POV, you have two MC members inside known rival MC territory and both are flying, they've already given you reason to pull them over by speeding.

Unless I had a low opinion of their intelligence or was incredibly stupid myself, I'd have assumed they were armed with "something". I too would have asked if they were armed (which I think is pretty much a standard question anyway) and if I didn't like the answer they gave, based on where I live, they could have been arrested for the moving violation, then searched.

I'm happy with the finding however, I still think they had a good defense attorney and quite a bit of luck.

 

My post is not meant to be a personal attack of anyone on this Board; I am happy to be an active part of this discussion and in no way wish to offend anyone.

Having said that, my family and I live in regions where there is alot of criminal activity perpetrated by men wearing patches. VA, MD, DE and NJ - if you know these areas then you likely know the names of these Clubs. We also have Bloods who like to advertise their affiliation by wearing the color red from head-to-toe.

These groups do more than just affiliate and socialize with each other; they are selling hard drugs to kids at schools where my nieces and nephews attend. Yeah, I get the whole argument about guilt by association, but these groups profess to operate "outside the law" which makes it hard for me to want to see them afforded any kind of legal protection.

 

Johnny Law needs to be aware of the laws. A little awareness could have easily gotten a conviction. Or was he aware? Would I have relieved the guys of their weapons? Probably, especially if I have reason to suspect that there could be violence. Perhaps, being in a rival territory is a good enough reson to get the guns away. Will it hold up? No. No one got killed. Sounds good enough to me.

The Johnny knew the rivals closely. He could be associated or was he preventing? Who knows or cares.

In reality, we have a Constitution. The Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, which says no person may be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law.

This is the basis for doing away with profiling of any kind. It originally was targeted at the States that were passing Colored laws. It may keep the guys from a conviction, but should not be confused with disrupting possible illegal activity. A slap on the hand and move on.